Has the Square gone over the edge?

   Thursday at the Square is a Western New York institution, now as much a part of summers in Buffalo as Chiavetta's chicken, Old Man River hot dogs and fried dough.

   The free outdoor concerts in Lafayette Square are a weekly excuse to meet your friends, schoolmates or co-workers for some cold beer and good music and warm weather.

   The people watching isn't bad, either. I should know; I've been going since I was a University at Buffalo student in the mid-1990s.

   But I, and other veteran concertgoers and observers, have noticed that the crowd at and around the square is changing. It's younger, it seems to be made up of fewer professionals and it's drawing more people who aren't going for the music.

   Buffalo and Niagara Frontier Transportation Authority police say serious crimes are rare at the square and at the Metro Rail stations and on the cars. But a melee that occurred on a subway car last Thursday - and was recorded and posted on YouTube - may make some people think twice about coming downtown for the square.

   So, what do you think of the concerts? Do you agree that the crowds are changing? What do you think of all the young people who hang out along Main Street?

   Should Buffalo Place bring back more oldies bands, or move the start time back to 5 p.m. from its current 6 p.m. start time, or provide more security?

   Is alcohol too much a part of the concerts these days? And is all of this making you reconsider going downtown for the concerts?

  --- Stephen T. Watson

Comments

[Joey]

and both my parents live togther, happily married. and i sure as hell don't "fight to prove my man-hood".

[Joey]

i really think the information being portrayed isn't accurate at all. people make it out to seem like people are going down there to start trouble, when thats not the case at all. i'm 16, and i attend the square, half of the time for the bands, and i DO spend money on tickets for consessions. stop making this out to be something it isn't.

[Craig]

Teenage boys are a problem, especially when they are raised without a father.

The father is the most important influence in a young man's life, and there are too many boys growing up with only a hyper-exaggerated sense of what it takes to be a man. They emulate what they see and feel are the traits of a man, mostly from roll models in movies and sports teams, and from negative comments that constantly hit them.

Look at TV, movies, sports, and listen to women talk about me. If you were an adolescent, you may believe that all men are aggressive, ignorant, lazy, dirty, incompetent, sexually motivated, unreliable, irresponsible, and dependent on direction from women just to survive.

This is where we are doing a gross disservice to our boys. We focus a lot of attention on the self-esteem of young girls, but have done so at the expense of young boys. It is just a shame.

[Client 10]

hernandez, of course it's the key! It's the ONLY thing that works! Come on man, join us here in the real world!

"locking people up isn't the key to preventing crime...that hasn't worked since the day it was instituted."

[BobbyCat]

The biggest danger to any society is teenaged boys. Most of them live to fight and prove their manhood. They are the suicide bombers of the world, the brawlers, the gang members, the drive-by shooters, the punks without conscience or remorse. They are dropping out of schools, filling the streets with crime and are a menace to society - until such time as their testosterone levels off.
Then they calm down. But until then, teen boys need, not empathy, but a firm kick in the pants.

I know. I was one.

But don't cancel the concerts because of them. Or anything else.

[hernandez1015ct]

You idiot...locking people up isn't the key to preventing crime...that hasn't worked since the day it was instituted. Tougher politicians are the ones who don't listen and always think their right. People need to open their eyes. The buffalo police are just as much a problem as the crime. They harrass everyone they come in contact with. The entire system in this city needs to be re-thought. Trying to weed out the bad kids and bad neighborhoods don't do anything but make the people who live their more angry and more hostile. We need to take care of real problems not what we worried about.

[Ed Wilderberry]

One way to make sure the square will not GET OUT OF Hand is make it "Thursday 30+ AT THE SQUARE"
All this younger NERD generation (mostly the males) comes and acts like a bunch of idiots let out of the asylum or special education schools.
Bad enough we all have to look at their pimply faces, piercings and tattoos, now we put up with their drunken buffoonery and bad dressing habits.
The cool 30+ generation has the money to spend AND knows how to behave itself.
Why not have "Romper room Wednesdays at Lasalle park"..it would be for teenagers and all the generation nerd 20 something guys & the females who can't behave themself! With nice tight ARMED security & they can listen to Rap & all the other garbage bands that generation is ignorant enough to like.
This all comes back to the fact this is the first generation EVER to NOT be cooler than their parents. That's just the way it is!

[Jibreel Riley]

I have a felling this video incident has nothing to do with the Square

[Reality Check]

Earth to Comino: They'd be released from our already overcrowded jail very fast. Don't you read the papers? That's how it is around here. If you want it to change, elect tougher on crime politicians who will build more prison space and have the guts to lock up a bigger portion of the population.

"Perhaps next time a large force of police should be waiting at the next station and the station and train locked down and the perps sorted out, hancuffed, read their rights, and taken to jail."

[Reality Check]

It's nothing to do with the type of music. It's everything to do with Buffalo being soft on crime. Even if arrests are made for assault based on this tape, the very lenient judges and DAs won't impose any serious consequences.

[James]

They would have NEVER Opened the doors like in this video in NYC. If someone informed the conductor or pressed the emergency lever. The train would stop, doors remained closed untill the cops arrived, other wise the suspects would run off just like in this incident. Maby NFTA needs to be re-schooled on how to handle these kinds of situations instead of using a video to identify suspects that they could of already had.

[hernandez1015ct]

Its just a normal day on the train. Crime is rising and nobody is doing anything. Mr. Brown thinks operation clean sweep is the only solution...arresting hundreds of people do not make a city safer. The problem is there's no money to help build and improve the communities these kids live in. All the good jobs are taken by people who choose to live in the suburbs therefore only looking to improve their communities not the city. This is a major problem in buffalo. A new strategy is in desperate need to help clean up the city. ASAP

[WNYMind]

Thursday in the square is a train wreak.

The real joke is the constant reference to Buffalo's subway system. Mr. Rogers neighborhood has a more comprehensive trolly system.

[Danno]

Youtube just took the video down. Too bad . . . this has been a good discussion.

[Comino Reality]

The problem isn't on the square. It's on the train.

NFTA please review this YouTube tape and your tapes and investigate and make arrests for this incident on the public train.

Perhaps next time a large force of police should be waiting at the next station and the station and train locked down and the perps sorted out, hancuffed, read their rights, and taken to jail.

[Ricky]

Forget the classic rock moans - 19,000 for Pat Benatar was way too many people. As a music lover, who hears beyond 97 Rock, I credit the organizers for bringing in a diverse group of bands that very likely would just drive through Buffalo on their way from a Cleveland gig to a Toronto show. And these bands are free! Don't kick a gift horse in the mouth.

Go back to the 5PM start time, end at 9PM - this helps all the local restaraunts and bars. Increase the # of subway trains running on Thursday evenings, mix in an NFTA cop or two occasionally to the subway (and not just on Thursday nights), and increase police/security presence all around...foot soldiers get attention.

[RC]

How old are these kids in the fight? 16? Are they really interested in the music of the Zappa's?? 21 and older at the concert from now on. No ID, no entry. And arrests for loitering for those who refuse to leave.

[Full of Ink]

Danno - I agree. This is sooo not a Thursday in the Square problem. Its a daily problem when you get a group of loud, rowdy rotten kids.

Sept. 3rd is fast approaching I am not looking forward to 100 kids walking down Main Street between 3 and 4 pm.

People need to stop blaming Thursday in the Square and start looking at the real picture...kids unattended...intoxiacted ADULTS fighting.

A bigger police presence is needed thats all.

[Jean]

No wonder Mayor Brown refuses to ride the Metro Rail. And I'm not surprised that it took an actual video just to prove how dangerous riding the train can be. I've stopped riding the Metro years ago after witnessing too many fights among kids (usually when school lets out between 3-4pm). And never a cop around to stop them before blood arrived. What's the purpose of having all these cameras in and around the trains if the public still has to press a button to call the cops? Who's watching the cameras then?

[dan]

waaaaaahhhhh! i want more classic rock dinosaur bands! waaaaaahhhhh! kids shouldn't be allowed near my precious square! waaaaaahhhhh!

[Giovanni Centurione]

I went to the Square only once this year and will NEVER go back. I was harrased when walking alone down Main Street and harrased again when I met up with my friends for simply being gay. My story is even in the July issue of 'OutCome' Buffalo. The new crowds are ignorant drunken losers. But, what do you expect from an event that Promotes Outdoor Drinking. The only time I seen police doing anything is AFTER a fight broke out along Main Street, followed by another fight where police finally started to clear the block alittle. The entire time, I felt unsafe and out of place. Why would I go back?

[Danno]

Ahem, earth to News: this is obviously not a "Thursday in the Square" problem. The sort of behavior exhibited on the train is the same as what I saw on a regular basis in the years I rode public transit in Buffalo. The video should be required watching for News writers, editors and others who are so politically correct that they wish to avoid the truth in order not to offend the supposed liberal sensibilities of their readers.

It also may behoove the NFTA Police, the BPD, and the Mayor to watch this and maybe even ride public transportation a few times. If they ever want make downtown attractive to middle class suburbanites, they need to know that a lot of unpleasantness never makes it to the police blotter. In fact, it's my suspiscion that incidents like this are regularly covered up by city officials. Does anyone think there will be an investigation of this incident? Has assault now become acceptable in Buffalo? What ever happende to "zero tolerance?"

[Chris Franklin]

As a relatively new train rider, since the gas prices spiked, I've mostly felt safe on the trains.

This does not deter me for my every day commute, but it may deter me for using the train for an event downtown.

I agree with the poster who said that the train operator is largely to blame.

I've been on the train during the day when the driver has scolded teenaged girls for being too loud. They looked at the ceiling in disbelief that someone could see and hear them. But that driver spoke up, and they were quiet afterwards.

Yes, it was crowded, and late, and people were agitated, but the NFTA's drivers, and schedule contributed.

By losing the regularity of cars after the afternoon commute, dropping from a car every 7 minutes to progressively every 10, 15 and eventually 20 minutes -- after 8:30 PM as this was -- it makes a lot of people impatient, and increases the number of people forced to ride together in a crowded train.

It was discouraging to see the one person who stepped up to be a peacemaker bloodied and battered.

It makes me wonder about the policing of Lafayette Square and Buffalo Place.

Thursday at the Square has slipped. I thought that the vets were crazy when they complained about the behavior at the concert series years ago, since it is the solemn Soldiers & Sailors monument.

But when acts like Jakob Dylan are commenting on the crowd's behavior, and things are escalating to public urination or train fights, something needs to be done.

[MS]

Whats next the St Patricks day parade.. plenty of fights happen there.

[Full of Ink]

The only reason this is getting attention is because of the video. I work on Main & Court right by the bus stop and the new Tim Hortons, right across from the Square. Fights like this are common downtown. I must see one at least once a week when school is in session. My 15 year will not take the train home from school because she said there is always a fight on the train. The NFTA does very little to protect the people on the trains or buses.

Most of the kids that go to the Square dont go to listen to the music. It has become a giant hang out for these kids. Its not the music..Jacob Dylan? Dweezil Zappa? These kids have no clue who they are.

BPD and Buffalo Place need to step up the patrols thats all.

[gfunk]

no one under 21 belongs at these events. increase security and card everyone entering the fenced in areas. police can take care of loiterers.

[B. Real]

The parents of ALL of these kids should be ashamed of what is going on.

[Stephanie]

Thursday at the Square used to be full of a nice mix of people, business people, music lovers, people showing off their bikes..... those people are still there, but the amount of loiterers has increased. Groups of young kids just standing around, other groups just standing around getting wasted. I don't know how you control that - it is an open area.

This train was just a ticking time bomb.... young people, some drunk, rowdy, crowded and it appears most acting irrational. The problem however, may not be the fault of the Square but the NFTA might need to put some security on the trains???

[Jackson]

As a downtown worker, the environment throughout the day has changed as a whole these last few years. Aside from increased smell of stale urine at every nook and cranny, the increased panhandling, and litter, most nonsense centers around the block around the NFTA Lafayette Square station, outside Main Place Mall, and Cathedral /Firemans Parks.

Its sometimes interesting to see the change between the lack of Police presence and when the Police are on the scene. A couple of Cops walking a beat between 11:30 and 2:30 would change things for the better.

[John]

Yes the fight was unnecessary and shouldn't have happened. However, in the five years I have been going to the square and the twenty or thirty times I have taken the subway to it, I have seen at least five fights on the actual subway. If I looked hard enough I probably even have pics. '

My point being...I don't think this year is actually any worse than other year. Someone just happened to catch something on video.

[Devin]

And another thought, the Walden Galleria had to enforce a policy on all the young kids who loitered in the mall...downtown or Buffalo Place should do the same all up & down Main Street.

[Jack]

The only man there was the tie-dye dude. He took action because it was needed and he paid the price.That is what a real man does. Hats off to you!

[mike]

There is simply NOTHING good, decent, noble or salutary about these events or the music. Popular culture and pop music is sheer idiocy at best and utter depravity at worst. Coupled with alcohol, it encourages individuals to indulge their basest, most ignoble instincts as part of a mob of inebriated, unthinking lemmings.

2,500 years ago, the Greek philosopher Plato rightly observed that in an ideal society, such music should be banned.

I guess we haven't learned much in 2,500 years, have we?

[Devin]

Thursday at the Sqaure hasn't been the same in many years. The style music that has been booked plays a major role in the type crowds that it attracts. What happened to having local bands for the first set, then having a headliner? I'm in my thirties and I do not want to hang out with a bunch of teenagers, if I wanted to do that I'll go to every high school pep rally - football games.
Buffalo Place may need to look at how the event has changed-it is not really thier fault-but times are changing and maybe they need to consider this for their future planning-on what type of crowds they want and also timing of the event. I work downtown-use to go right after work-now if I go home-I tend not to come back.

[Art Vandalay]

Change the music and change the crowd...its that simple!!

[Perry]

There has been a change in the atmosphere for Thursday on the Square for over five years now. It is directly related to the change over in the music since the current Manager of Marketing took over in 2003. The yearly schedule, which in pre-2003 was dominated by classic rock acts with a sprinkling of alternative acts, is now vice versa. Which in turn brings in the younger crowds, many under the age of 21, that don't spend the money on concessions etc. that the 35 and older crowd had a history of. Bring back the classic rock acts to The Square that are currently playing other outdoor local venues on the summer circuit and you will bring up revenue while possibly reducing some of the young borish behavior. Classic rock bands have always drawn the largest crowds at The Square. Focus on bringing a mature audience downtown.

[Know It All]

Did anyone get hurt after they exited the train? Any idea if the kid that was jumped got hurt? This video made me sick. The girl wanting to get on camera and the scum complaining about his broken glasses are disgusting.

[frank]

at least there beatin on each other rather than a innocent bystander. as usual they cower when the authorities show up. I`m sure their parents would be proud to see what class their kids have!!

[J R]

The responsibility for this situation getting out of hand is solely on the Train Operator who HAS access to sound and cameras on the train he/she is driving. This went on for Ten minutes in which time NFTA Police could've been alerted. NFTA Police are tough, responsive and professional. The Train Operator should take the fall for the brawl.

As for the concert series?? It starts later and goes longer for time for nonsense to escalate. Remember when the event was for downtown workers who wanted to have beer, listen to music and scope out prospective partners?? It was simpiler then.

[Todd]

Someone identify the gutless cowards who jumped in and threw punches. This is exactly why I do not go downtown. I prefer to spend my money in the suburbs. Mayor Brown, are your listening? I doubt it. Too busy taking your City SUV to Delta Sonic.

[Krista]

The video just made you realize how ignorant some people are. Alcohol really wasn't an issue, because if you look at who really started the fight and attacked that guy, you know they were not drinking, because they are the same people you see on the train any time of day causing trouble.

[Krista]

The video just made you realize how ignorant some people are. Alcohol really wasn't an issue, because if you look at who really started the fight and attacked that guy, you know they were not drinking, because they are the same people you see on the train any time of day causing trouble.

[Laura]

Seems pretty simple: the selection of bands playing this year has attracted a younger base of attendees. With the younger attendees have come the problems.

Evaluate future bands more carefully and consider the type of attendees they attract.

[Justin from Niagara Falls]

This whole video made my blood boil and anyone who wasn't disgusted from watching this should seriously get their head examined. This isn't as much a Thurday at the Square problem and it doesn't appear to be alchohol related (although the NFTA needs to put officers on the rail to handle the crowds) as it is a sickness in our society. How could anyone just sit on the train when you have TEN people about to jump some guy sitting by the window! You don't need to hear the audio, anyone with some common sense can see who the aggressors were in this video. I'm glad that guy in the tie dye had the heart to stand up and do something. We are missing the point by blaming drunkeness and Thurday at the Square. Anyone who sees something like this about to go down needs to step in. We can not hide in the shadows any longer when we know what's right!

[Craig]

Most of the problems are from kids 18 ad younger because no one is there to control them. There should be an age limit at either 20 or 21 and there should be better ways to ID people downtown.